Young Professionals Chronic Disease Network

Agreed completely Marwah. Coursera is great and my brother in
university says students are latching onto it in droves --

Raises three things in my mind --

1 -- Mo Ali first pointed me to the work of Salman Khan (not the
Bollywood actor...) of the Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
-- a rising star who has championed the 'flipped' classroom model. The
site has his brilliant TED talk as well. In Khan's model, students
have video lectures for homework (which they prefer...they can rewind
the lecture; pause; watch it at their convenience) and then clarify
doubts with their peers online or with their teacher the next day. The
striking thing is he has built a pilot program with some schools in
California and has shown demonstrable improvement in learning. I'm
told that Khan is keen to develop Khan Academy lectures for medical
school, almost a stand alone medical school curricula -- (anyone know
more?)

2 -- Colleagues @ Stanford have posed if we could imagine lecture
halls without lecturers -- a proposal for health education in the NEJM
-- and cite Khan Academy, TED talks and youtube as media to deliver
content in the 'flipped' classroom model. Increasingly, lecture halls
in health professionals schools ...

Agreed completely Marwah. Coursera is great and my brother in
university says students are latching onto it in droves --

Raises three things in my mind --

1 -- Mo Ali first pointed me to the work of Salman Khan (not the
Bollywood actor...) of the Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
-- a rising star who has championed the 'flipped' classroom model. The
site has his brilliant TED talk as well. In Khan's model, students
have video lectures for homework (which they prefer...they can rewind
the lecture; pause; watch it at their convenience) and then clarify
doubts with their peers online or with their teacher the next day. The
striking thing is he has built a pilot program with some schools in
California and has shown demonstrable improvement in learning. I'm
told that Khan is keen to develop Khan Academy lectures for medical
school, almost a stand alone medical school curricula -- (anyone know
more?)

2 -- Colleagues @ Stanford have posed if we could imagine lecture
halls without lecturers -- a proposal for health education in the NEJM
-- and cite Khan Academy, TED talks and youtube as media to deliver
content in the 'flipped' classroom model. Increasingly, lecture halls
in health professionals schools are only 30-40% filled and everyone is
online via laptops, etc... in the first instance....and professors
often complain about teaching at some institutions....having a
standard, online, open-source curricula could be very disruptive.
Would open up much class time for what Asaf Bitton of this network
calls helical training whereby students could go to communities, work
in teams with other young professionals in training/other students
much earlier -- and whereby collaboration would start from day 1 (med
students, nursing students, social work students, urban planning
students, psychology students etc...) would work together in teams
(and be incented for doing so). Right now, the model seems to me to be
very guilded and siloed and then folks are all of a sudden told to
work in teams and collaborate after having been raised in an
individualist culture after nearly 10 years of training -- seems to
be antiquated to say the least. As Jacob Scott says for medical
training, what Sir William Osler had an iPad? would the same system
still be how folks would learn....

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202451

3 -- Marwah, our common school (Cornell) has a campus in New York and
your campus in Doha, Qat'ar for medicine. Our lectures in New York are
often taped and played online in Doha, no? How has that been? Do the
video lectures lose something? Do you prefer the in-person ones? Any
critiques, ideas, etc....from your experience form Cornell med in
Doha? How has that experience informed your receptivity to online
education platforms (say, for a medical school curriculum). I'm told
from a member of this network Matthew Rysavy that studies now show
that video lectures are equally effective as knowledge transmission as
in-person lectures. Seems to be a trend -- and can see the benefits of
making such knowledge more widely available in HICs and LMICs....to
prompt the social and health transformations --

thoughts from others who have experience as a student or teacher via
online education in a system that has led to impact?? keen for
examples?



On 9/1/12, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <> wrote:
> Marwa Saleh added a new discussion to the Young Professionals Chronic
> Disease Network community.
>
> Title: online education.
>
> Discussion contents:
> "coursera offers amazing, interactive courses, applicable to anyone (whether
> in school, or working)... the next step in education is here. I know there
> are many online resources, but this is different.
> watch the TED talk about their
> system:http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_education.html
>
> here are the courses, browse through to see whats of interest:
> https://www.coursera.org/category/health
>
> imagine, an online accredited medical school.. what would it take?"
>
> --
> View this post online:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/?id=860719&fo...>
>
> Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/sandeep-kishore/edit/>
>
> Contact the GHDonline team:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
>
> You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail; it
> will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot be
> added via email attachment and must be uploaded directly to GHDonline.
>
>


--
Sandeep P. Kishore, Ph.D.
Department of Global Health & Social Medicine, Harvard Medical School
The Global Health Delivery Project at Harvard University
Co-Chair, Young Professionals Chronic Disease Network

Weill Cornell/ The Rockefeller University/ Sloan-Kettering Institute
Tri-Institutional MD-PhD Program

6 Craigie Circle, Suite 41
Cambridge, MA USA 02138
email:
tel: (917) 733 -1973

I have to confess, being a Stanford med student, that a lot of what's being
proposed here with respect to moving medical education online and
'inverting the classroom' often feels like a buzzword salad rather than a
meaningful educational strategy.

With respect to preclinical education, people learn in multiple different
ways - some from lectures, some from independent reading, and others in
still other manners. Rather than abandoning one system for another, the
best response is likely along the lines of what many medical schools in the
US have been doing for the preclin years: keeping lectures going for those
who want to attend, recording them for those who want to watch later, and
allowing people who'd rather simply read the books to read the books
instead of lecture. Once you're at a graduate level of education - which
is how medical school works in the US and Canada - you're rightly expected
to have some sense as to how you study best and to follow that to optimize
your learning and your school should support the varieties of approaches
rather than identify with only one, whether it's traditional lectures or
inverted classrooms.

Siloing as described doesn't ...

I have to confess, being a Stanford med student, that a lot of what's being
proposed here with respect to moving medical education online and
'inverting the classroom' often feels like a buzzword salad rather than a
meaningful educational strategy.

With respect to preclinical education, people learn in multiple different
ways - some from lectures, some from independent reading, and others in
still other manners. Rather than abandoning one system for another, the
best response is likely along the lines of what many medical schools in the
US have been doing for the preclin years: keeping lectures going for those
who want to attend, recording them for those who want to watch later, and
allowing people who'd rather simply read the books to read the books
instead of lecture. Once you're at a graduate level of education - which
is how medical school works in the US and Canada - you're rightly expected
to have some sense as to how you study best and to follow that to optimize
your learning and your school should support the varieties of approaches
rather than identify with only one, whether it's traditional lectures or
inverted classrooms.

Siloing as described doesn't happen much as described, either, inasmuch as
my friends at medical schools that also have dental and pharmacy schools
take their classes together, and that my experience on the wards over the
past year has emphasized collaboration with nurses and pharmacists and PAs
(one institution, several hospitals, to be sure).

Finally, what I think really undermines the idea of a purely online,
accredited medical school is Sir William Osler (no ipad necessary): "He who
studies medicine without books sails an uncharted sea, but he who studies
medicine without patients does not go to sea at all." Nothing replaces
face-to-face interaction with patients as an integral part of medical
education, and that isn't replicated in a purely online environment.

A rushed response I confess. I look forward to any rebuttals!

Best,
Ben

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 5:12 PM, GHDonline (Sandeep Kishore) <
> wrote:

> Sandeep Kishore replied to the discussion "online education." in the Young
> Professionals Chronic Disease Network community.
>
> Reply contents:
> "Agreed completely Marwah. Coursera is great and my brother in
> university says students are latching onto it in droves --
>
> Raises three things in my mind --
>
> 1 -- Mo Ali first pointed me to the work of Salman Khan (not the
> Bollywood actor...) of the Khan Academy (http://www.khanacademy.org/)
> -- a rising star who has championed the 'flipped' classroom model. The
> site has his brilliant TED talk as well. In Khan's model, students
> have video lectures for homework (which they prefer...they can rewind
> the lecture; pause; watch it at their convenience) and then clarify
> doubts with their peers online or with their teacher the next day. The
> striking thing is he has built a pilot program with some schools in
> California and has shown demonstrable improvement in learning. I'm
> told that Khan is keen to develop Khan Academy lectures for medical
> school, almost a stand alone medical school curricula -- (anyone know
> more?)
>
> 2 -- Colleagues @ Stanford have posed if we could imagine lecture
> halls without lecturers -- a proposal for health education in the NEJM
> -- and cite Khan Academy, TED talks and youtube as media to deliver
> content in the 'flipped' classroom model. Increasingly, lecture halls
> in health professionals schools are only 30-40% filled and everyone is
> online via laptops, etc... in the first instance....and professors
> often complain about teaching at some institutions....having a
> standard, online, open-source curricula could be very disruptive.
> Would open up much class time for what Asaf Bitton of this network
> calls helical training whereby students could go to communities, work
> in teams with other young professionals in training/other students
> much earlier -- and whereby collaboration would start from day 1 (med
> students, nursing students, social work students, urban planning
> students, psychology students etc...) would work together in teams
> (and be incented for doing so). Right now, the model seems to me to be
> very guilded and siloed and then folks are all of a sudden told to
> work in teams and collaborate after having been raised in an
> individualist culture after nearly 10 years of training -- seems to
> be antiquated to say the least. As Jacob Scott says for medical
> training, what Sir William Osler had an iPad? would the same system
> still be how folks would learn....
>
> http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp1202451
>
> 3 -- Marwah, our common school (Cornell) has a campus in New York and
> your campus in Doha, Qat'ar for medicine. Our lectures in New York are
> often taped and played online in Doha, no? How has that been? Do the
> video lectures lose something? Do you prefer the in-person ones? Any
> critiques, ideas, etc....from your experience form Cornell med in
> Doha? How has that experience informed your receptivity to online
> education platforms (say, for a medical school curriculum). I'm told
> from a member of this network Matthew Rysavy that studies now show
> that video lectures are equally effective as knowledge transmission as
> in-person lectures. Seems to be a trend -- and can see the benefits of
> making such knowledge more widely available in HICs and LMICs....to
> prompt the social and health transformations --
>
> thoughts from others who have experience as a student or teacher via
> online education in a system that has led to impact?? keen for
> examples?
>
>
>
> On 9/1/12, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <> wrote:
> > Marwa Saleh added a new discussion to the Young Professionals Chronic
> > Disease Network community.
> >
> > Title: online education.
> >
> > Discussion contents:
> > "coursera offers amazing, interactive courses, applicable to anyone
> (whether
> > in school, or working)... the next step in education is here. I know
> there
> > are many online resources, but this is different.
> > watch the TED talk about their
> > system:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_educat...
> >
> > here are the courses, browse through to see whats of interest:
> > https://www.coursera.org/category/health
> >
> > imagine, an online accredited medical school.. what would it take?"
> >
> > --
> > View this post online:
> > <
> http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/?id=860719&fo...
> >
> >
> > Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> > <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/sandeep-kishore/edit/>
> >
> > Contact the GHDonline team:
> > <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
> >
> > You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail;
> it
> > will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot
> be
> > added via email attachment and must be uploaded directly to GHDonline.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Sandeep P. Kishore, Ph.D.
> Department of Global Health & Social Medicine, Harvard Medical School
> The Global Health Delivery Project at Harvard University
> Co-Chair, Young Professionals Chronic Disease Network
>
> Weill Cornell/ The Rockefeller University/ Sloan-Kettering Institute
> Tri-Institutional MD-PhD Program
>
> 6 Craigie Circle, Suite 41
> Cambridge, MA USA 02138
> email:
> tel: (917) 733 -1973"
>
> --
> View this post online:
> <
> http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/#reply-6244?i...
> >
>
> Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/ben-seligman/edit/>
>
> Contact the GHDonline team:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
>
> You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail; it
> will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot be
> added via email attachment and must be uploaded directly to GHDonline.
>



--
Benjamin Seligman, M.S.
Stanford University, School of Medicine
MD Candidate, SMS IV

Starting off about our experience here in Cornell-Qatar, much of our pre-clinical education was via taped video lectures. From a class of 45+ students only 5 continued attending scheduled lectures after the taped ones were released. Students reported grasping the material better when watching at their own pace, especially when the sound quality isn't too well, and forwarding through unnecessary segments (break time, etc...).
Also, what coursera has to offer is a much advanced step from this. It simulates the interactions a classroom creates, through asking questions, allowing time to answer, and much more. Technology can offer so much to medical online education, true, there will be many barriers to achieving a full online system, but imagine, how many international health workers such a system will educate if mastered right! In the start of her TED talk, she describes how many South Africans are struggling for a college degree, online education is the answer, no more will access be a limitation to knowledge (the rright to an education)!

Coursera also sets up conference calls across different countries for students to interact. This can be used to simulate patient interactions.... This is where Telemedicine comes in!
Of course there must ...

Starting off about our experience here in Cornell-Qatar, much of our pre-clinical education was via taped video lectures. From a class of 45+ students only 5 continued attending scheduled lectures after the taped ones were released. Students reported grasping the material better when watching at their own pace, especially when the sound quality isn't too well, and forwarding through unnecessary segments (break time, etc...).
Also, what coursera has to offer is a much advanced step from this. It simulates the interactions a classroom creates, through asking questions, allowing time to answer, and much more. Technology can offer so much to medical online education, true, there will be many barriers to achieving a full online system, but imagine, how many international health workers such a system will educate if mastered right! In the start of her TED talk, she describes how many South Africans are struggling for a college degree, online education is the answer, no more will access be a limitation to knowledge (the rright to an education)!

Coursera also sets up conference calls across different countries for students to interact. This can be used to simulate patient interactions.... This is where Telemedicine comes in!
Of course there must be an element of live medical education to complete this online system, visiting faculty, etc.. this is a long-shot... however, in the meantime, we can promote these short courses, and perhaps create software that simplify access....
this field has immense potential, will be fascinating to watch it grow into something positive for all!

Great discussion going on. Though I agree with Ben on the medical
education. The theoretical part of medical sciences could probably be made
available as online sessions, but it would be hard to replicate the
practice component of medicine with the current technology. This would also
be in some ways at a tangent from some of the emerging concepts in medical
education, such as the PBL methodology, team-based learning and a focus on
inter-personal communication with patients and team members.

Expanding this discussion a little further towards teaching/learning
concepts in medical sciences, I can comment from my experience in Pakistan,
that a large part of what a medical student learns is actually through
observing and following practising doctors, regardless of what is written
in books.

That said, I think Coursera is an awesome concept. The course base is
rather small at the moment and we will find out over time, which
disciplines are best suited to this kind of learning system.

Regards,
Usman Raza
linkedin.com/in/uraza <http://www.linkedin.com/in/uraza>


On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 10:00 PM, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <
> wrote:

> Marwa Saleh replied to the discussion "online education." in ...

Great discussion going on. Though I agree with Ben on the medical
education. The theoretical part of medical sciences could probably be made
available as online sessions, but it would be hard to replicate the
practice component of medicine with the current technology. This would also
be in some ways at a tangent from some of the emerging concepts in medical
education, such as the PBL methodology, team-based learning and a focus on
inter-personal communication with patients and team members.

Expanding this discussion a little further towards teaching/learning
concepts in medical sciences, I can comment from my experience in Pakistan,
that a large part of what a medical student learns is actually through
observing and following practising doctors, regardless of what is written
in books.

That said, I think Coursera is an awesome concept. The course base is
rather small at the moment and we will find out over time, which
disciplines are best suited to this kind of learning system.

Regards,
Usman Raza
linkedin.com/in/uraza <http://www.linkedin.com/in/uraza>


On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 10:00 PM, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <
> wrote:

> Marwa Saleh replied to the discussion "online education." in the Young
> Professionals Chronic Disease Network community.
>
> Reply contents:
> "Starting off about our experience here in Cornell-Qatar, much of our
> pre-clinical education was via taped video lectures. From a class of 45+
> students only 5 continued attending scheduled lectures after the taped ones
> were released. Students reported grasping the material better when watching
> at their own pace, especially when the sound quality isn't too well, and
> forwarding through unnecessary segments (break time, etc...).
> Also, what coursera has to offer is a much advanced step from this. It
> simulates the interactions a classroom creates, through asking questions,
> allowing time to answer, and much more. Technology can offer so much to
> medical online education, true, there will be many barriers to achieving a
> full online system, but imagine, how many international health workers such
> a system will educate if mastered right! In the start of her TED talk, she
> describes how many South Africans are struggling for a college degree,
> online education is the answer, no more will access be a limitation to
> knowledge (the rright to an education)!
>
> Coursera also sets up conference calls across different countries for
> students to interact. This can be used to simulate patient interactions....
> This is where Telemedicine comes in!
> Of course there must be an element of live medical education to complete
> this online system, visiting faculty, etc.. this is a long-shot...
> however, in the meantime, we can promote these short courses, and perhaps
> create software that simplify access....
> this field has immense potential, will be fascinating to watch it grow
> into something positive for all!"
>
> --
> View this post online:
> <
> http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/#reply-5902-2...
> >
>
> Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/usman-raza/edit/>
>
> Contact the GHDonline team:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
>
> You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail; it
> will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot be
> added via email attachment and must be uploaded directly to GHDonline.
>

I do agree with all your comments Marwa, Sandeep, Ben, Usman.

Attending medical school in Kenya (University of Nairobi) and taking electives at several schools enabled me to appreciate different forms of pedagogy.

At the University of Nairobi our forms of education comprised mainly class wide lectures and tutorials. The lectures were not the most favorite part, taking place at 7-8am and 4-5pm. A lot of students would have gladly traded these for an online class that could be watched at more convenient times. And I can say with confidence that nothing would have been lost if these we completely replaced.

Small group tutorials were scattered throughout the day. I found these to be very useful.

Attendance for the class wide lectures was very poor, in spite of them being almost compulsory. We got the power-point presentations for the classes - some of them. At times these were simply not availed so as to improve on the physical presence of students in the lecture halls, a clear misunderstanding of the concept of learning.

My outlook is a bit nuanced - there is certainly room for online medical education, but as a complement to the other forms notably PBL and apprenticeship (same old ...

I do agree with all your comments Marwa, Sandeep, Ben, Usman.

Attending medical school in Kenya (University of Nairobi) and taking electives at several schools enabled me to appreciate different forms of pedagogy.

At the University of Nairobi our forms of education comprised mainly class wide lectures and tutorials. The lectures were not the most favorite part, taking place at 7-8am and 4-5pm. A lot of students would have gladly traded these for an online class that could be watched at more convenient times. And I can say with confidence that nothing would have been lost if these we completely replaced.

Small group tutorials were scattered throughout the day. I found these to be very useful.

Attendance for the class wide lectures was very poor, in spite of them being almost compulsory. We got the power-point presentations for the classes - some of them. At times these were simply not availed so as to improve on the physical presence of students in the lecture halls, a clear misunderstanding of the concept of learning.

My outlook is a bit nuanced - there is certainly room for online medical education, but as a complement to the other forms notably PBL and apprenticeship (same old hear one, see one and do one kind of approach). And for the online part, medical schools in developing countries stand to benefit to a greater extent. Up until a few months ago I was an Anatomy instructor at my medical school. My main reference was a dissection video, made by a professor at some far away school I do not know. I loved it, and so did my students.

Thank you all for the exciting thread.

As mentioned by learned members,online education can not be a stand alone model in professional courses but can supplement.One option can be to have a full medical graduate course available online which students world wide can access while they continue to study in whatever medical college across the world.Access to such a course may be restricted only through institutional licence so that only students formally registered with some recognised college attend it and we do not end up encouraging quackery.
One central theory online exam may also help introduce international standardisation in education.Some degree of practical knowledge can also be assesed but clearing such a course can not be adequate for anyone to practice medicine.
Such methodology can be used for CME.Of course,There are many CME courses internationally but none which focusses on practice of medicine in resource limited and remote areas.A course especially focusssed on such areas can be initiated by an international agency like WHO etc.

Thanks Marwa for posting this... It is great..! It surely helps the people
working in different countries as they would be trained by some amazing
people ...!

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 7:00 PM, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <
> wrote:

> Marwa Saleh added a new discussion to the Young Professionals Chronic
> Disease Network community.
>
> Title: online education.
>
> Discussion contents:
> "coursera offers amazing, interactive courses, applicable to anyone
> (whether in school, or working)... the next step in education is here. I
> know there are many online resources, but this is different.
> watch the TED talk about their system:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_educat...
> here are the courses, browse through to see whats of interest:
> https://www.coursera.org/category/health
>
> imagine, an online accredited medical school.. what would it take?"
>
> --
> View this post online:
> <
> http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/?id=17793277&...
> >
>
> Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/garima-rautela/edit/>
>
> Contact the GHDonline team:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
>
> You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail; it
> will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot be
> added via email attachment and ...

Thanks Marwa for posting this... It is great..! It surely helps the people
working in different countries as they would be trained by some amazing
people ...!

On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 7:00 PM, GHDonline (Marwa Saleh) <
> wrote:

> Marwa Saleh added a new discussion to the Young Professionals Chronic
> Disease Network community.
>
> Title: online education.
>
> Discussion contents:
> "coursera offers amazing, interactive courses, applicable to anyone
> (whether in school, or working)... the next step in education is here. I
> know there are many online resources, but this is different.
> watch the TED talk about their system:
> http://www.ted.com/talks/daphne_koller_what_we_re_learning_from_online_educat...
> here are the courses, browse through to see whats of interest:
> https://www.coursera.org/category/health
>
> imagine, an online accredited medical school.. what would it take?"
>
> --
> View this post online:
> <
> http://www.ghdonline.org/yp-chronic/discussion/online-education/?id=17793277&...
> >
>
> Unsubscribe or change your email notification settings:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/users/garima-rautela/edit/>
>
> Contact the GHDonline team:
> <http://www.ghdonline.org/contact/>
>
> You can reply to this discussion by responding directly to this e-mail; it
> will be shared with all community members and posted as is. Files cannot be
> added via email attachment and must be uploaded directly to GHDonline.
>
>


--
Warm Regards

Garima Rautela